It’s truly remarkable how evolutionists will keep repeating obviously false statements over and over again, even after they have been a) shown that the statement was always false and b) told directly that they are repeating a false statement. A woman named Rebekah with a YouTube channel called Examining Origins has obviously read Probability Zero and challenged evolutionists to address its arguments there. The video already has 598 comments, and not one single one of them even demonstrates a basic grasp of the issues involved, let alone presents a coherent response.
Philalethist_Physikos: I respect your work, Rebekah! A quick word of caution to the audience on Vox Day’s formula in Probability Zero: his math assumes mutations fix strictly one after another in a single-file line. In real biology, sexual reproduction and recombination mean mutations sort across the genome simultaneously in parallel, so the math doesn’t hold up in population genetics. If you want rigorous mathematical challenges to evolutionary timescales, stick to researchers like Douglas Axe (coordinated mutations) or Walter ReMine and Royal Truman Haldane’s Dilemma and selection cost). They address real population genetics without making the single-file error!
No, literally none of my math assumes serial fixation. Not MITTENS, not the separate and unrelated math addressing the misapplication of Kimura’s steady-state identity, and not the separate and additionally unrelated math proving the impossibility of punctuated equilibrium. To the contrary, serial fixation with sweeps and ancestral drift are about all that is left AFTER the math eliminates various mechanisms that are not viable.
I quote from yesterday’s post: The LTEE runs twelve identical populations of bacteria in parallel from the same ancestor. Every single evolutionary mechanism from natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, hitchhiking, epistasis, compensatory mutation, and frequency-dependent selection, to clonal interference operates simultaneously in all 12 populations for 85,000 generations and counting.
Which is how we know Philalethist_Physiko isn’t merely ignorant, but dishonest. He appears to have read my post, which is why he mentions “sexual reproduction and recombination” and therefore knows that recombination isn’t included in the LTEE calculations, but he still claimed that I assumed serial fixation which is not at all the case. And he also assumes that recombination will help speed up the fixation rate, which it won’t. the recombination appeal is the signature of someone who learned evolutionary biology from the adaptive narrative rather than from the math. In the evolutionist narrative, recombination is always a good thing. In the math, recombination is a double-edged sword that also breaks linkage, imposes segregation costs, and exposes deleterious recessives. But any positive effects of recombination are massively overwhelmed by the much larger negative effects imposed by sexual reproductive limits.
To demonstrate how wildly ignorant the scientists themselves are, consider this comment from someone who claims he is a research geneticist.
brianmansfield6912: This is not ‘unresolved’. I’ve been a research geneticist for almost 40 years, perhaps I can explain the basic problem. There is a critical error in the calculations in that book. The approach he uses calculates the probability of the occurrence of the 20 million SPECIFIC substitution differences that exist between human and chimp. The correct method is to calculate the probability of ANY 20 million differences. That is, how many substitutions are expected to accumulate over 9 million years? Basic mutation rates and probability theory predict about 20 million. The problem isn’t with evolutionary theory. It would be interesting to someday find an honest creationist….
First, the Kimura equation he’s citing is inapplicable and he’s using the wrong one. The applicable Kimura equation, the time-related one, predicts six neutral mutations, not 20 million. The other Kimura equation, the steady-state identity to which he is appealing, has been mathematically and empirically proved to be irrelevant and all the calculations based upon it are totally wrong. Genetic drift simply doesn’t happen in any population over 10,000. This guy has literally no idea what he’s talking about, for all that he’s waving his credentials and Dennis McCarthy’s erroneous babblings around like a flag.
Here’s another demonstration of an inability to grasp what is being analyzed by someone named Taylor:
Just took the time to actually review the paper cited at the 2 minute mark (2009, Barrick et al), and the quote is a blatant lie.
By generation 20,000, that lineage had picked up 45 mutations, or about one per 440 generations. That’s roughly three times faster than the quote says. Then a mutation that sped up mutation across the whole genome appeared around generation 26,000, and the total climbed to 653 by generation 40,000. Vox Day’s own blog attributes the 1,401 figure to a 2017 paper, not the 2009 one, and counts only beneficial fixations, which is just so clearly biased it’s unthinkable that anyone would dare actually publish it. Human genes have evolved traits like near/far sightedness, derpression, anxiety, schizophrenia, endometriosis, sickle cell anemia, and a million other non-beneficial traits. Then there are our different eye colors, hair-growth rates, toe shapes, etc. that are closer to the neutral side… So counting only “beneficial” mutations is just plainly stupid.
The other side of the problem with this quote is that it’s clearly attempting to trick readers into thinking that this observation should be understood to be some kind of universal speed limit for mutations. It’s not. The fastest rate we’ve ever “observed” is hilarious because on one had, it proves that we’ve observed evolution occurring under lab controlled conditions, AND it only sets the bar for what we’ve literally observed in lab, not what we might observe in any and every other species. For example, the largest start we’d ever observed by the early 1700’s was our own, but that didn’t mean that our sun was the largest star we could ever see.
Observing mutation rates in a lab is a massive undertaking, unless you use something incredibly small that reproduces quickly, like bacteria or mice. But also, just because we don’t observe mutations under lab controlled conditions doesn’t mean we haven’t observed them. A human newborn carries about 60 new mutations. That puts the expected human rate at tens of substitutions per generation, which just so happens to be the EXACT order of magnitude that the human–chimp divergence requires.
TBH, I’d be shocked if you even take the time to read this. I’d be astounded if you listened closely enough to consider changing your mind, but I expect, like all other facts that contradict your religious beliefs, that you’ll simply ignore it and continue building your empire of willful ignorance.
It’s not “a blatant lie”. It’s a demonstration that the critic doesn’t have the first clue about the LTEE, how it works, or what it is measuring. First, the number that I have cited, 1,322 generations per fixation, is the AVERAGE number of fixations across the still-healthy populations for 60,000 generations each, confirmed directly from the lab’s raw data. This guy is citing the Barrick 2009 paper’s results for one population: Ara-1. The critic saw that there were 45 mutations detected in that lineage. But those are total mutations detected in a single lineage, not fixations across the entire population, and it doesn’t even begin to take into account what happened in the other 11 populations. The MITTENS figure of ~1,322 generations per fixation is derived from what is now the remaining five viable populations through 60,000 generations to count mutations that actually reached ≥95% frequency in any of those five populations. Taylor is comparing apples to automobiles.
UPDATE: Sometimes I can’t tell if they’re lying or if they’re just retarded as with this comment by CreationMyths.
He claimed he addressed this, but he hasn’t. His math clearly doesn’t, and apparently either Day nor anyone defending him understands that math well enough to realize that. Day says his math accounts for simultaneous mutations and recombinations but if you actually look at his math, it doesn’t. He explains that this is the case, apparently without realizing so, several times in his book. He’s very clear on this.
The math OBVIOUSLY does address this because parallel fixation is built right into the numbers being averaged due to the nature of the LTEE experiment. And it should be immediately obvious that parallel fixation is included in the math because the average includes all the different populations evolving separately at the same time! And the math also obviously does NOT account for recombinations because bacteria do not reproduce sexually. Once more, we have a would-be critic who has no idea what he’s babbling about. He literally doesn’t know what is being measured or how it is being measured.
UPDATE: Correction: CreationMyths is neither lying nor retarded, he’s merely confused MITTENS math with Bernoulli math.
Nope. He specifically explains this in the book. Several times. His math is for sequential fixation. He does not account for the the fact that recombination allows multiple beneficial alleles to fix at once, nor for the fact that selective sweeps fix multiple alleles at once (mostly neutral). For real, you’re all just repeating what he says as though that’s a response to all the reasons he’s wrong. By all means, keep taking his word for it. There’s a reason real biologists take this stuff seriously. It’s just the “waiting time problem”.
Now I understand why he’s confused. He’s confusing the math of MITTENS, which specifically includes and incorporates parallel fixation, with my subsequent disproofs of parallel fixation. Now, I can assume that you think there is somehow a contradiction there. But there isn’t for a simple, but non-obvious reason: neither the Bernoulli Barrier nor the Hard Limit on neutral drift apply to the LTEE experiment because a) the math is an average of 12 different populations and b) there is no time for neutral drift to have occured yet in the 85,000-generation time limit of the LTEE. The MITTENS generations-per-fixation rate includes parallel fixation due to the structure of the experiment. It is literally built into the structure since it utilizes 12 completely separate populations all running simultaneously in parallel. That’s not how real-world species work.
This is the section that has him confused. It’s from Appendix A and he doesn’t realize that it’s referring to different, non-MITTENS math.
The theory of evolution by natural selection fails its own quantitative test, by its own mathematics, against the data its own practitioners have produced and published. The logical structure of the result is as follows. The Bernoulli Barrier proves that parallel fixation—millions of mutations simultaneously reaching fixation—is physically impossible (pn ≈ 10−34,000,000). The Averaging Problem proves that the polygenic rescue—gradual frequency shifts at many loci under selection on aggregate fitness—is logically impossible, because the mechanism destroys the variance it requires to operate. Therefore fixation must be sequential. And sequential fixation is empirically falsified: the fastest rate ever measured in any organism, applied to the most generous generation count, yields 180 fixations where 205 million are required. The impossibility is in the structure—parallel is ruled out a priori by probability and by logic. The empirical falsification is in the throughput—sequential cannot do the work in the available time by a factor of 10⁶.
Now, perhaps I could have worded it better, but the statement is nevertheless correct because the all-cause rate is obviously faster than a sequential rate. They don’t realize that I am implicitly acknowledging the whole basis of their critique there, because it’s totally irrelevant. This is what I meant by the evolutionists not understanding that there are multiple levels to the disproof of evolution by any and all mechanisms. They’re still wrestling with stage one and trying to defend natural selection, so pulling in elements from later stages is only going to confuse them. They don’t realize that I’ve not only incorporated parallel fixation at the most naive level, I’ve subsequently demonstrated why it doesn’t operate the way they imagine it should.
Anyhow, the MITTENS 3.0 paper renders those complicating elements moot to such an extent that I omitted both the Bernoulli Barrier and the Averaging Problem, even though both of them remain entirely correct.
UPDATE: More hilarity forthcoming.
GraysonHawk: We’re all reading Vox Day’s book right now and laughing at how stupid his math is. Video incoming.
It should be amusing to catalog all of the various things this retard is going to get wrong in his desperate attempt to prove that math which has been confirmed by every major AI system and more than 10 math PhDs is “stupid”. They have absolutely no idea how far ahead of them I am; it appears they still genuinely believe that k=u over time even though it was both mathematically and empirically disproved more than a decade ago by mathematicians and scientists who are not me.
DISCUSS ON SG