Fun with atheists

It’s really remarkable to see how many atheists fail to understand what their “assume the other person is lying if he does not immediately present documentary evidence upon demand, which will of course be immediately dismissed for failing to meet the unexpressed demand for peer-reviewed and published scientific evidence” says about their personal integrity, or as is more precisely the case, their lack of it:

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
The reason most atheists trust fellow atheists less than anyone else is because they recognize their own lack of integrity and morality.

Paul D ‏@Lost_in_Formosa
Any evidence for that?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Yes. Look it up.

Paul D ‏@Lost_in_Formosa
in other words, you just made it up, right?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
No. You guys are so predictable. You assume lies. Why? Because you are an atheist and you readily lie.

Paul D ‏@Lost_in_Formosa
Why are you slandering a huge group of your fellow human beings?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
You are lying. Truth cannot be slander by definition. You’re really not helping the case for atheist integrity here.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Vox: Atheists don’t trust other atheists because projection.

Atheist: Show me the evidence!

Vox: No.

Atheist: You lie!

Vox: Voila….

The amusing thing is that they still absolutely believe that they are the smart ones, the “bright” ones, because godless. It’s now gotten to the point that when I hear someone is an atheist, rather than an agnostic, I now assume aggressive midwittery.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And a refusal to provide freely available, readily accessible evidence on demand is not a reliable indication that the other party is lying. It could mean that, or it could simply indicate that the other party is aware that you are an intellectually overmatched and lazy little bastard who is going to quibble in a dishonest and self-serving manner about any evidence that is provided to you, no matter how reliable the sources.

UPDATE: Someone else linked the article to which I was referring. The good faith atheist’s response to incontrovertible proof that I was not, as he claimed, lying, slandering, and making things up?

Paul D ‏@Lost_in_Formosa
Read the comments to see how stupid the “research”. There are more believers in jail than atheists! How come?

Seriously, at this point, how do you still manage to doubt me? He didn’t even hesitate before trying to move the goal posts!


The ignorant atheist

This is why atheists remain so furiously ignorant. Once they are apprised of the relevant history and statistics, their arguments vanish into thin air:

The article, by Phil Zuckerman of Pitzer College, is entitled “Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions” and, unlike Plante’s article, it cites detailed studies of the areas in question.
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Zuckerman analyzed a wide array of data comparing religious nations to less religious nations and also, interestingly, religious states within the United States (i.e. “Bible-belt” states) to less religious states. While I encourage readers to examine the article directly through the link above, here are just a few of the highlights:
Criminal Behavior:

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: “Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread.” He also states: “Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries.”

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: “And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon.”

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in “religious” states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).

Zuckerman cites a 1999 Barna study that finds that atheists and agnostics actually have lower divorce rates than religious Americans.

I’ve dealt with most of these in The Irrational Atheist.

  1. The more secular vs more religious nation argument reflects on race, not religion.
  2. The 50 safest cities are also a racial argument, not a religious one.
  3. This is a variant of Sam Harris’s Red State argument. It’s also wrong at both the city and county level.
  4. Again, a racial argument.
  5. Atheists are actually overrepresented in prison if “No religion” is counted as atheist, as it usually is by atheists when they’re not trying to downplay the number of atheists.
  6. It appears Zuckerman failed to correctly understand the relevant data or was not privy to it. While it is true that 3 percent more Baptists – who along with
    Episcopals have the highest rate of Christian divorce – are divorced
    than atheists, only 34 percent of atheists are married in the first
    place. In other words, 26.4 percent of atheist marriages fail compared
    to 15.7 percent of Baptist marriages, even though a much lower
    percentage of atheists ever get married.

A review of the gods debate

Robert Beisert reviews On the Existence of Gods:

In the past couple of weeks, an amazing written debate on the existence of gods (not God, but gods) was published to the Amazon store. Theist Vox Day (Theodore Beale, for those who care) and atheist Dominic Saltarelli exchanged three rounds of debate concerning the question of whether or not gods could exist. Though it does not establish an airtight case on either side, it serves as an interesting launching point into the debate itself.

He does regret that the arguments were not examined more deeply, but a debate is simply not the idea mechanism for that sort of thing. I would like to consider some of the ideas Dominic and I discussed in more detail at some point, but right now my hands are more than full.

Anyhow, it’s good to see that people who are serious about the subject appear to have thought rather well of both the approach as well as the exchange of ideas.

And don’t miss A Pius Geek’s review of Iron Chamber of Memory, which he says has more in common with Victor Hugo than James Patterson.


Mailvox: atheism and the motte-and-bailey analogy

BJ, an atheist, didn’t feel the topic that was debated in On the Existence of Gods was entirely fair.

As an atheist, I agree that Vox won the debate. His arguments were more
persuasive and coherent. Dominic was a good sport, but he was attacking a
castle with no cannons, no towers, no ram, not even a ladder. I don’t think it is a fair debate topic, though that is not Vox’s fault.
It’s what Myers originally claimed and what Dominic agreed to. But it’s
not a fair view on the subject.

This is the standard motte and
bailey for defending theism. You replace ‘proof of god’ with ‘doubt of
science’ and hope no one calls you on it (Dominic didn’t). Then you push
the atheist into admitting they can’t rule out the possibility of the
existence of something which may resemble a god or gods. Most people
consider that a win.

The problem I have with that is no priest
suggests the possibility of a god or gods, they talk about very specific
gods with very specific rules, demand very specific obedience, and ask
for very real money. None of them can prove their god is real but that
is the bailey position; when they are under attack they retreat to the
motte position, which is just “you can’t prove god(s) DON’T exist.”
Kinda weak basis for tithing 10% of my income.

On the one hand, this is an entirely reasonable point with which I agree entirely. In fact, I repeatedly point out, in both On the Existence of Gods and in The Irrational Atheist, that the argument for the existence of the supernatural, the arguement for the existence of Gods, and the argument for the existence of the Creator God as described in the Bible are three entirely different arguments.

One could further observe, with equal justice, that none of these three arguments suffice to establish the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth or the existence of the Holy Trinity as described in the Constantinian revision of the original Nicene Creed.

The problem, however, is that BJ reverses the motte-and-bailey analogy as it is actually observed in the ongoing atheism-Christianity debate. For example, even in the debate he criticizes, Dominic’s sallies were initially directed at all forms of supernaturalism before being knocked back by my response which observed that the supernatural is a set of which gods are merely a subset.

More importantly, there was never any retreat to the Christian bailey. It simply wasn’t the subject at hand; the purpose of the debate was to challenge the atheist claim to the motte claimed by PZ Myers. And as for Dominic supposedly failing to call me on the very rational and substantive grounds to doubt the legitimacy of science, particularly as it relates to science’s ability to address the subject of gods, that was an intelligent tactical move on his part, because I would have easily demolished any attempt to rely upon science in that manner.

As readers of this blog know, I don’t regard science as being even remotely reliable in its own right, I consider its domain to be limited, and there is considerable documentary, logical, and even scientific evidence to support that position. It is certainly an effective tool, when utilized properly, but it is not a plausible arbiter of reality.

In any event, those interested in the subject appear to find On the Existence of Gods to be a worthy addition to the historical discussion, as it is currently #2 in the Atheism category, sandwiched between a pair of books by Richard Dawkins. If you haven’t posted a review yet, I would encourage you to do so.


Reviewing the debate

Steampunk Koala – now there’s a name – reviews On the Existence of Gods:

First, let’s address the format…. All in all, it worked extremely well, and I would like to see it used elsewhere.

The second thing, and perhaps the most important thing, was the effort that went into defining what a god is, as well as evidence and logic. It’s very rare to see it even come up in a debate in a meaningful way, and that has always struck me as foolish. It seems a  bit like arguing for or against string theory but never actually defining the model you are using.

I have long felt that this is the largest issue with the discussion, as the average  Atheist I have talked to has built a mental narrative in which they cannot lose by defining a god as a being who does magic, magic breaks physics and is fake, and anything that falls within any form of natural law is not magic, therefore not a god. As Vox very neatly points out, there is an issue of scale to be considered, regardless of where you draw the line.

Likewise, I know a lot of fellow Christians that feel that examining the topic closely is either a waste of time or even a bit sinister, as though wondering about how it all works is going to somehow change the facts.

It’s also worth noting that I found the material compelling enough that my first attempt at this review ended up blossoming into a short book length examination of the arguments made rather than a review proper. There is a lot of meat here for the taking…. On the balance, this book is a must-read for any serious seeker, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum.

I have to confess that as a game designer, it is gratifying to see that some readers have recognized the merits in the debate format. And it’s good to know that many of those who are very familiar with the subject nevertheless found it to bring something new to the age-old discussion. On the Existence of Gods is available at Amazon.


Stupidity vs psychopathy

That is the correct way to describe the argumentum ad absurdum of the religious mind versus the rational mind:

To believe in a supernatural god or universal spirit, people appear to suppress the brain network used for analytical thinking and engage the empathetic network, the scientists say. When thinking analytically about the physical world, people appear to do the opposite.

“When there’s a question of faith, from the analytic point of view, it may seem absurd,” said Tony Jack, who led the research. “But, from what we understand about the brain, the leap of faith to belief in the supernatural amounts to pushing aside the critical/analytical way of thinking to help us achieve greater social and emotional insight.”

Jack is an associate professor of philosophy at Case Western Reserve and research director of the university’s Inamori International Center of Ethics and Excellence, which helped sponsor the research.


”A stream of research in cognitive psychology has shown and claims that people who have faith (i.e., are religious or spiritual) are not as smart as others. They actually might claim they are less intelligent.,” said Richard Boyatzis, distinguished university professor and professor of organizational behavior at Case Western Reserve, and a member of Jack’s team.

“Our studies confirmed that statistical relationship, but at the same time showed that people with faith are more prosocial and empathic,” he said.

In a series of eight experiments, the researchers found the more empathetic the person, the more likely he or she is religious.

That finding offers a new explanation for past research showing women tend to hold more religious or spiritual worldviews than men. The gap may be because women have a stronger tendency toward empathetic concern than men.

Atheists, the researchers found, are most closely aligned with psychopaths—not killers, but the vast majority of psychopaths classified as such due to their lack of empathy for others.

This is yet another piece of scientific evidence in support of my hypothesis that atheism is nothing more than the predictable consequence of being neurologically atypical; that atheism is what might as reasonably be described as social autism.

Which, of course, is just another way of describing a lack of empathy. This makes sense, as I have all the attributes of the average atheist, with one key exception: I am highly empathetic. The short answer to the common question: “how can you believe in God when you are highly intelligent and well-educated” is “Because I am capable of empathizing with my fellow Man.”

As will be clear to anyone who has read the Metaphysics bestseller, On the Existence of Gods, atheism is not a rational position justified by reason and evidence. It is, quite to the contrary, an instinctive and emotional reaction to the atheist’s inability to identify with and relate to the world around him. This is why most atheists become atheists in their teenage years, and why so few are able to provide any justification for their atheism beyond a highly subjective appeal to their own credulity.

That doesn’t mean that atheism is not a legitimate expression of disbelief. It absolutely is, it simply isn’t what it purports to be.

However, it also explains the intrinsic distrust that normal individuals harbor for atheists; it is the same distrust they harbor for psychopaths and others who do not “read” normally.

As I once told Sam Harris in an email when I was helping him with the neurology experiment that led to The Moral Landscape, the scientific investigation into belief and unbelief is far more likely to discover things that trouble the atheist perspective considerably more than the religious one.

For example, if we can ever cure psychopathy by instilling empathy into those who lack it, one likely consequence will be the eventual elimination of atheism. And if the suppression of religious belief necessarily means the suppression of empathy, this renders all dreams of a functional post-religious society intrinsically impossible.

In any event, this will provide a useful rhetorical weapon for the theists. The next time an atheist tells you that you are less intelligent because you believe in God, the obvious response is that you are also, unlike the atheist, not a psychopath.


Some things never grow old

I’m not sure what amuses me more: 1) the way atheists get annoyed whenever they see my name among the Best Sellers in Atheism, or, 2) the way the SF-SJWs always try to minimize category bestsellers by pointing out the fact that there are lots of niche categories on Amazon.

Which is, of course, true, but the relevant point is that in these particular cases, it’s not just any category, but intellectually significant categories such as Atheism, Politics, and Philosophy. Which makes me, quite literally, a bestselling philosopher. Sadly, I have thus far been unsuccessful at convincing Spacebunny to tell people that “philosopher” is my occupation. Maybe if I started wearing a wooden barrel….

In any event, I would like to sincerely congratulate my co-author, Dominic, for his first top-three bestseller in the Atheism category. Not bad for a former denizen of richarddawkins.net. And I’d like to thank all of you for making that happen.


Do we need God?

It is not an exaggeration to say that of all the books that comprised the critical response to the initial onslaught of the New Atheism, the most effective was The Irrational Atheist. This was due to the fact that, unlike most of the other books on the subject, it directly addressed the various arguments presented by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and others. Since then, the New Atheism has largely subsided in the public eye, and yet, if the relevant statistics are to be believed, Western society remains heavily influenced by the inept secular philosophy that provided the foundation for the New Atheist wave, secular humanism.

The first noteworthy thing about C.R. Hallpike’s book, Do We Need God to Be Good, is that the reader is nearly two-thirds the way through the book before he can reasonably ascertain which way the author would be predisposed to answering the titular question. Nevertheless, I must admit that Hallpike’s book is even more effective than TIA, because instead of refuting the atheist arguments used to attack religion, it targets many of the philosophical foundations upon which those arguments are dependent.

Hallpike is an English anthropologist, and if Wikipedia is to be trusted, apparently one of more than a little note. This is unexpectedly relevant to the topic, because, having lived with the primitive tribes of Papua New Guinea for years, Hallpike has amassed, and published, considerable first-hand evidence concerning the way in which pre-civilized societies are actually structured. And it is through the expertise he has acquired that he effortlessly demolishes a vast edifice of pseudo-scholarship that has been erected under the name of “evolutionary psychology”:

Normal science proceeds from the known to the unknown, but evolutionary psychology tries to do it the other way round…. It cannot be sufficiently emphasized, therefore, that our profound ignorance about early humans is quite incompatible with any informed discussion of possible adaptations. Ignoring these drastic limitations on our knowledge has meant that many so-called ‘adaptive explanations’ are merely pseudo-scientific ‘Just So Stories’, often made up without any anthropological knowledge, that have increasingly brought evolutionary psychology into disrepute.

Hallpike provides one devastating example, cited from the Proceedings of the Royal Society, in which it is claimed that humans lost their body hair and took to wearing clothes as the result of sexual preferences expressed over one million years ago. He then points out that while our ignorance of primitive sexual preferences is complete, “at least we know they could not possibly have had clothes, because these have only been around for a few thousand years.”

His critique of secular humanism is even more effective, as the sins of the evo-psych enthusiasts can be reasonably put down to a combination of observable ignorance with a predilection for writing fiction. It is one of the more powerful refutations – to say rebuttal is simply not strong enough – one is likely to encounter in print, as Hallpike not only highlights the philosophical competence of the secular humanists, but casts serious doubt upon their self-professed motivations as well.

Given the importance that Humanists ascribe to science, and the revolutionary claims of modern biology about the nature of Man, it is quite striking that the only interest they seem to have in biology is using it to attack religion, not to reflect on what it has to say about Man. Yet if one takes the claims of evolutionary biologists seriously, especially their denial of consciousness and free will, it is hard to see how the very idea of human agency and moral responsibility could survive at all. Although Humanists prefer to ignore these issues, in the words of Francis Crick, ‘tomorrow’s science is going to knock their culture right out from under them’, and they need to come to terms with the obvious incompatibility between their liberal Western values and a genuinely Darwinian view of Man.

It is remarkable that despite the fact that his critique of evolutionary psychology is well within his professional wheelhouse, Hallpike is at his most effective when criticizing secular humanism by its own professed standards. After tracing its intellectual history back to the 14th Century, Hallpike reviews the foundational work of two influential humanist philosophers, A.C. Grayling and Paul Kurtz, and points out the conclusively damning fact that none of the qualities of the ideal secular humanist nor the detailed program of what all proper secular humanists should believe have anything to do with the principles of science or secular humanism!

We are also given a detailed programme of what all rightthinking people should believe about human rights, sexual morality, abortion, euthanasia, parenting, education, privacy, crime and punishment, vegetarianism, animal rights, separation of church and state, and government. This seems a remarkably detailed set of conclusions to draw from the two simple premises of ‘no supernatural beings’, and ‘thinking for oneself’, but in fact none of it follows from these at all. What we are actually getting here is a highly ethnocentric summary of the fashionable opinions of Western secular liberals in the early twenty-first century, and who in Britain would read the Guardian.

Humanism is a prolonged glorification of Self, success, and the gratification in every possible way of ‘the fat, relentless ego’, which is why it has a particular loathing of religion. 

Having executed the sacred cow of secular humanism in a manner brutal enough to make a Chicago slaughterhouse butcher blanch, Hallpike proceeds to examine other modern belief-systems, including Objectivism, Behavioralism, and Collectivism before proceeding to directly address the question posed in the beginning of the book.

While his answer is a reasonable one, it is not exactly straightforward. His answer is ultimately yes, that Man needs God to be good because the moral significance of God is the provision of a worldview that provides men with objective value and moral unity as God’s children, elevates spiritual values over purely material ones, and justifies personal humility in the place of self-worship.

I highly recommend Do We Need God to Be Good to anyone who appreciated TIA. It’s intelligent, well-written, and highly-accessible; I would have loved to have published it. And I am very pleased to be able to say that Dr. Hallpike will be the guest at the next Open Brainstorm event, which will be Tuesday night at 8 PM Eastern. I will be sending out the initial invitations to Brainstorm members later today, and provide the registration link to everyone else tomorrow.

Brainstorm members, please note that you will be receiving a review copy of the ebook with your invitation to the event.


The ignorant atheist

It’s not so much the ignorance that I find amusing, as the incessant posturing:

Richard Dawkins @Richard Dawkins
Tweet accuses The God Delusion of “displaying all sorts of logical fallacies”. Anyone care to name a single one?

Vox Day @voxday
Argumentum ad verecundiam. Detailed here: The Irrational Atheist.

Of course, most of Dawkins’s errors don’t rise to the level of logical fallacy, as no one has hitherto bothered to name such “arguments” as “appeal to irrelevant anecdote involving Alfred Hitchcock”.


Lessons in Rhetoric: Atheist edition

This atheist – sorry, “gnostic atheist” – decided to insert himself into the conversation following my observation that Richard Dawkins demonstrably does not know what “evidence” is:

Sapien @VernacularSwag
@voxday @RichardDawkins Stop talking. Atheism and agnosticism aren’t mutually exclusive terms. 90% of self-described atheists are agnostic

Vox Day @voxday
There is considerable evidence for God. You like definitions: look up “evidence”.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
LOL. Name one piece of evidence. You now are taking the affirmative

Vox Day @voxday
You’re laughing because you’re stupid. Again, look up “evidence”.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
I’m not the one pointing to invisible arguments for my position.

Vox Day @voxday
Neither am I. You don’t know what evidence is. Your arguments are hopelessly wrong.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
What the actual fuck

Sapien @VernacularSwag
You’re refusing to even have the discussion so how do you even know what my argument is

Sapien @VernacularSwag
You claim there is evidence for god yet refuse to provide an example and I’m the stupid one

Sapien @VernacularSwag
Go look it up for yourself, I’m done arguing against your ignorance

Sapien @VernacularSwag
you said considerable amount so surely it should be easy to provide just one

Vox Day @voxday
It is. But I know the Atheist Dance. You’re too intellectually short for the ride.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
Try me

Vox Day @voxday
No. The train is fine. Stop talking.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
It’s much easier to win argument that never happens isn’t it

Vox Day @voxday
What the actual fuck? Stop talking. The train is still fine.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
What the hell is this train you keep talking about lol

Vox Day @voxday
The train that is fine.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
…are you okay?

Vox Day @voxday
Yes. So is the train.

Sapien @VernacularSwag
Are you just saying random things to derail the convo now or what?

Vox Day @voxday
The train is not derailed. I already told you it is fine. Stop worrying about the train.

Needless to say, he’s doing a wonderful job proving my observation about the high degree of correlation between atheists and what used to be called “Asperger’s Syndrome”. I suppose now we could simply call it “atheism”. Or, if they prefer, “gnostic atheism”.

It’s certainly interesting to see that eight years after the New Atheists burst onto the scene waving the bloody flag of atheism, even Richard Dawkins is now publicly claiming that he is merely an “agnostic” and atheists are insisting that “atheism” merely means “personal disbelief in the existence of God” and certainly not any positive claim that God does not exist.

NB: as an additional discrediting flourish, directly quote their little rhetorical jabs once they’ve used them. If you don’t overdo it, it serves to underline their disinterest in genuine dialectic.