Debate: Jack Murphy vs Vox Day

Here is a brief selection from the recent debate on the future of the Alt-Right  between Jack Murphy and me that was hosted by Ivan Throne, the author of The Nine Laws:

Ivan Throne: Vox, do you advocate a white ethno-state? If so, what is the proper white homeland?

Vox Day: I wouldn’t say that I advocate for the white ethno-state so much as I see it as inevitable. First of all, white ethno-state is somewhat of a misnomer. White American is not the same as a European nationality. This is something that I have had to explain to a lot of white nationalists. White nationalism makes no sense in Europe because over here we have distinct white ethnic groups that are completely separate.

In the US, however, where the original American nation has been adulterated to the point that you have a generic white race, there you will see the same move towards homogeneity that we have traditionally seen throughout history. People tend to forget that homogenous nations do not spring into existence from the ground. They emerge from heterogeneous, multinational, multicultural empires. The US went from an Anglo-Protestant nation to a multinational, multicultural, multiracial empire. It was an empire that was imposed by force during the Civil War, and it will go the way of all empires. We are already seeing, in the American southwest, the rise of La Raza Cosmica, who want their own independent state in the southwest.

It’s going to be a mess. These situations are always a mess, but in terms of what is right or wrong, my tribe has its own reservation, and I support them having that reservation, and I don’t see any reason that self-identified white people should not have the same self-determination that the US has defended around the world for a hundred years.

Jack Murphy: That is a very interesting representation. I am a lifelong Democrat. I voted for Bill Clinton and proudly for Obama during the first election. I live in Washington DC, the bluest of all blue districts in the US. It is sort of a democratic ideal. I have come into the exploration of white identity politics from a belief that there is a feminist/Marxist overreach combined with intersectionality that has deemed victim culture here in the US as where we are. Every minority group, self-identified to some intersection, has become a victim. By virtue of them being a victim there must be a perpetrator. That perpetrator according to them is me. A straight white male. Russian Jewish and Catholic Irish, but that doesn’t matter. Through intersectionality I become the perpetrator of all evils in the Us.

This is my entre for identity politics. From there I explore why and how our people representing themselves in groups and based around identity functions. I explore the identities and advocacy that our people entertain. My perspective, as I explore new political groups after being abandoned by the democrats in their move to the left, the world shifts and the center passes me by and I find myself on the left. I must figure out where I fit into in this new reality. The term alt-right came up. From my perspective, the alt-right was exciting. It wasn’t stodgy and unappealing to a counterculture person. It wasn’t boring. I didn’t really understand or have any notion about its history. I began to explore with the perspective of “I am now the bad guy.” Just ten years ago, I was part of the “good team.” I was questioning how I would find my way in the future when being a straight white male in the US makes you the villain.

This conversation is to me an exploration. The conversation I wanted to have with Spencer, who has been very vocal advocate for white amnesty by any means possible, was going to seek direct answers to the question of what means he wanted to use. For me, I am less concerned about theory, less concerned about broad subjects that are not really about what I am going to do today. How am I going to manage day to day?

Vox Day: Just so you understand, we are not talking about theory here.

There is nothing more pragmatic and realistic than what I am describing. What I am describing is about as optional as gravity. What has fundamentally changed is the US, and the reason that people like Richard Spencer and people who have long been completely ignored on the Right, people who were pushed out and pushed aside by William F. Buckley and the conservative movement. Those people saw this coming. Since 1965, when the Immigration and Naturalization Act was pushed through, the die was cast. Ever since 1965, the US has been on a clock, and the clock is running out of time. The clock has now run out.

What I mean by running out is this: it is only possible to have ideological or political disagreements when you have people who are more or less the same in identity. As the founder of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, said, in any multiracial state, all politics is identity. This is not a white thing, or a European thing. This is not even a right-wing thing. This is straightforward history and political science.

Someone like Richard, or some of the people who are out there more aggressively advocating for white nationalism, or whatever you want to call it, they are a symptom. Even your move to the right was a result of people hating you. They didn’t allow you into the party anymore. At the DNC, they kicked out a guy running for chairman because he was criticizing a Muslim. That, too, is identity politics. It doesn’t matter if you do not know your identity, you know you are different because they kicked you out.

This is all part of the same very large cyclical process. The end result of that process is, as the Alt-Right likes to say, diversity plus proximity equals war. And the end result of that process is ethnically homogenous ethno-states.


Alt-Right vs New Right

Ivan Throne, the Dark Triad Man, is hosting a debate between Jack Murphy and me concerning the future of the Alt-Right next Saturday night.

Vox Day is an American publisher, science fiction writer, philosopher, musician and video game designer. He is a former nationally syndicated columnist with Chronicle Features and Universal Press Syndicate. He is known as the Supreme Dark Lord of the Evil Legion of Evil by his supporters, who describe themselves as Vile Faceless Minions and the Dread Ilk. He is also the lead editor at Castalia House, publisher of my bestseller The Nine Laws. 


Notably for this debate, Vox Day is also the author of the 16 Points of the #AltRight.


Jack Murphy is a senior executive, accomplished athlete and writer. He covers men’s issues, current events, and personal development at Jack Murphy Live. He is also a father of three. Jack’s recent advocacy of the NewRight and its differences from the #AltRright lead to a recent confrontation with Richard Spencer as covered by The Atlantic and Business Insider.


 The topic is the future of the #AltRight.


Vox Day and Jack Murphy will cover a range of topics including white nationalism, identity politics, the tension between the #AltRight and other groups, including what Mike Cernovich calls the New Right.


Both men are intelligent, accomplished, passionate and educated. And with moderation from Dark Triad Man we are sure to have a very powerful Brutal Clips podcast.


 Subscribe today and take part in shaping the debate. Once you are subscribed you can submit your questions and I will ensure that the best of them are covered within our alloted hour:


Stay tuned for the debate that will shape the narrative.


The discussion between Vox Day and Jack Murphy will change the way you look at the #AltRight and the future of identity politics in not just the United States, but in the West.


I’ll be genuinely interested in what Jack has to say, because I cannot see what sort of civic nationalist case he’s going to be able to present that I have not only considered, but subscribed to in the past. To me, this is rather like a debate between a tadpole and a frog; it doesn’t really matter what the tadpole thinks, or what sort of future he imagines, because he’s eventually going to become a frog regardless.

These things take time, observation, and experience. Consider what Mike Cernovich, whose inclinations are strongly civic nationalist, and whose in-laws are affected by the travel ban, has to say on the subject. His words might surprise some; they don’t surprise me in the slightest because I know how realistic he is.

If people keep telling whites that they hate them, then they shouldn’t feign outrage when the native population listens, and closes to the doors to the U.S.

The outlook for America’s future is grim. Hatred from the left will only continue, and violence will increase. While the left wears the symbols of the Soviets, they lack their secret police. While the left has the media, the right has the guns. The U.S. is not the U.S.S.R. We will not go silently into the gulags.

People wonder why I’m so militant, and now you see why. We are in a war, and it’s one declared by the left. I am a target for violence in my own country.


Heat Street: Vox vs Louise on the election

And to think some of you wonder why I like doing these little debates with Louise. The headline alone is well worth it. Vox Day: God-Emperor President Donald Trump Is On the Way – AltRight Election Debate

Louise: Right. This is going to be quicker, slightly quicker than normal, but it’s Louise Mensch, Vox Day recording this debate, which Vox suggested that we do after the election, but I think that after the election is the coward’s way out and beneath us both. Because, after the election you can redo your prediction to say in light of everything how right you were. Why didn’t astrologists ever predict anything before it actually happens? First of all, let’s put our reputations on the line by giving our predictions for the overall winner, and by approximately how much. You go first, Vox.

Vox: I am actively and eagerly looking forward to the ascension of the God Emperor, Trump. I think that he is not only going to win, I think he is going to win by a larger percentage than people expect. I think that he’s probably going to win by a margin by a of at least three percentage points nationally, possibly more. In terms of the electoral college, I have absolutely no idea.

Louise: Oh,  that sounds like a chicken-out to me. I got to say, I got to say. Winning the election is when you become the president afterwards.

Vox: No, he will win the electoral college vote, I just don’t know how much. I don’t know what states he’s going to win, because given the unreliability of the polls, given the fact that one poll in North Carolina had Hillary Clinton up by thirteen points, and another one had Trump up by four, it’s impossible to make any sort of reasonable calculation of this, the best efforts of Nate Silver and other poll watchers, notwithstanding.

Admit it, the headline made you laugh. It made me laugh, anyhow. I should clarify one point, however. I don’t believe there would be a civil war as a reaction to Hillary Clinton’s election, or during whatever fragment of a term she would be healthy enough to serve. I believe that her election would, as a result of open immigration and eventual amnesty, lay the foundation for the political dissolution of the USA, and eventually, a Yugoslav-style civil war for territory among rival ethnic groups in the 2030s.


First Trump-Clinton debate takes

The Democratic line, courtesy of the Cajun Rattlesnake himself, James Carville:

I can’t imagine that after what we saw tonight the needle doesn’t move some.

He was just bad.

I’ve talked to a lot of people that have done a lot of research and these sort of instant things, these dial groups. I think what you hear around this panel is pretty much shared by the research that I’ve seen tonight.

Yeah, she was prepared, she was solid, she did a good job. He just kind of — as he went further into it… He just — the further they went, the worse it got. They almost wanted to throw the towel in after 90 minutes. That’s enough.

The Neocon take, as per Charles Krauthammer:

It was not exactly the knock out fight that we thought. It was a spirited fight. I think in the end it was something like a draw. But I do believe that the draw goes to the challenger in the sense that Trump did not go over the line. And the very fact he could go 90 minutes on the same stage ultimately elevates the challenger, that’s just automatic for any debate of that support.

I think he did allow himself to get very defensive and she exploited that. She kept coming back for things where he wasted a lot of time on taxes, on some of the other issues he felt personally about, and, as a result, he missed a lot of opportunities. She presented herself as she always does. Solid, solid, knows her stuff, not terribly exciting but reliable. I think that is the best she can do. Likable, she couldn’t but that is not something within her reach.

He contained himself in the sense that I don’t think he committed any gaffes but he allowed himself — she could find out something personal about him that would make him down rabbit holes at a time when he had wide openings to go after her on e-mails and other items, and let them go.

The Master Persuader impression, from Scott Adams

Trump only had to solve one problem at the debate: Seem less scary. He did. Think about it. Clinton won the debate on points but looked like a recently turned zombie learning to smile for the first time. Trump was Trump. Tie.

My perspective, which should be largely discounted because, as is my habit, I did not watch a single moment of it. Partly because it’s not worth staying up for, but also because I think I get a better take on the reaction to the debate by not having any personal impression to discount.

My verdict: a minor Trump victory that will not get in the way of the polls continuing to gradually move in his favor towards the predicted Trumpslide. 

This is a testable conclusion. If I am correct, the polls will continue to move modestly Trumpward. A minor Hillary win will arrest the polls at the virtual tie point that was reported pre-debate. A big Hillary win would start gradually reversing them, and a big Trump win would trigger the preference cascade and see Trump rapidly move into an unassailable lead.

The important thing to remember is that the substance of the debate, the actual words, the stuff that the media discusses, is only about one-third of the effect of the debate. Hillary clearly won the words portion thanks to Trump allowing himself to be distracted and failing to take advantage of the numerous openings she gave him. But with the non-verbal aspect, the candidates each had to meet a separate objective. Trump had to appear convincingly presidential and look as he merited being on the stage. Hillary had to appear healthy and sane.

Trump did the former. While Hillary didn’t collapse, go on a coughing jag, or go into full bobblehead mode, words such as “creepy” and “zombie” and “weird”and “Nixon” appeared often enough in reactions to the debate that it is clear she failed the optics element.

Remember, people’s reactions are cemented at distinct and unique moments that vary considerably from one person to the next. I was both mystified and amused by the reactions of some people to my debate with Robert Murphy; I couldn’t relate to their perceptions of either party and I was not only there, I was one of them! So, don’t make the mistake of thinking that it’s even possible to isolate two, or three, or ten factors that will trigger the decision response in a viewer, as it could be a weird smile, a convincing phrase, or a momentary look of confusion that does it.

Peter Grant wasn’t impressed with either candidate’s performance, but noted a substantive distinction between the two:

What did strike me was the contrast between the candidates’ approaches to the rest of the world.  Donald Trump was emphatic about protecting American jobs and our national economy, if necessary by renegotiating international trade agreements, restricting immigration, etc.  Hillary Clinton was much more globalist in orientation, looking to admit more refugees, work together with other nations (whatever that means), and so on.  She basically saw the United States as just one nation among many, whereas Donald Trump saw it as the ‘first among equals’ with the right to put its own interests first.

And Scott Adams’s considered conclusion:

The most interesting question has to do with what problem both of them were trying to solve with the debate. Clinton tried to look healthy, and as I mentioned, I don’t think she completely succeeded. But Trump needed to solve exactly one problem: Look less scary. Trump needed to counter Clinton’s successful branding of him as having a bad temperament to the point of being dangerous to the country. Trump accomplished exactly that…by…losing the debate.

Trump was defensive, and debated poorly at points, but he did not look crazy. And pundits noticed that he intentionally avoided using his strongest attacks regarding Bill Clinton’s scandals. In other words, he showed control. He stayed in the presidential zone under pressure. And in so doing, he solved for his only remaining problem. He looked safer.


In defense of 14 words

Now, I don’t usually recommend this sort of dialectical response to a rhetorical attack like the one cited here. However, for those who are sufficiently bilingual in the black arts of philosophical persuasion, this may be a useful example of how to turn an attacker’s rhetorical assault against him.

Notice how he initially attacks Point 14, but when called on his implicit endorsement of their negation, refuses to directly answer what aspect of it he opposes. This is what I mean by dialectic being useful for exposing pseudo-dialectic for rhetorical purposes.

It’s a little confusing, I know, but don’t be misled. This is, from start to finish, a rhetorical engagement. I am merely using dialectic as a rhetorical device to expose and manipulate him into publicly discrediting himself.

Supreme Dark Lord @voxday
Awful attempt by (((@CathyYoung63))) to critique my #AltRight platform. She calls the West “a mongrel culture”.

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
You saw awful, but most would say accurate. @CathyYoung63 has nailed it. The #AltRight are nazis, pure and simple.

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
Here, @voxday means the Jews. (screencap of 10)

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
Here, @voxday uses that well known scientific term: sub-species. No racism to see here. Move along. (screencap of 15)

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
#WhatIsTheAltRight?
Well, the #AltRight are white supremacists. Isn’t that right, @voxday?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Some are, most aren’t. I’m an Indian. What part of this do you oppose? “We must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children”?

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
So you are a white supremacist then. Just another reactionary nazi.

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
You are, it seems. And no, I don’t oppose the existence of PEOPLE.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
No, Charlie, I am not. I am an Indian who believes that the continued existence of white people is desirable. Why do you disagree?

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
Stop being disingenuous. It’s a well known White Supremacist slogan. You know that.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Answer the question. What part of it do you oppose? All of it? None of it?

Charles Ledley‏@ialmctt
I’ll answer it if you acknowledge that it’s a well known white supremacist slogan. Do you acknowledge that?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Of course. That’s why it is point 14. Now, answer the question. Do you support all of the 14 words, some of them, or none of them?

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
I’ve answered this.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
No, you didn’t. This is going on the blog, so don’t be evasive. Which of the 14 words do you disagree with, if any?

Charles Ledley ‏@ialmctt
Put what you like on your blog. I answered your question

He didn’t, of course, and we all know why. If he actually answered it, he would either be liable to his own charge of being a white supremacist for endorsing the continued existence of white people or he would be put on the record for calling openly for the extermination of the white races.

I believe this should settle the debate about whether Point 14 belongs on the list of core Alt-Right principles or not in favor of the affirmative.


(((Ben))) bravely runs away… again

(((Ben Shapiro))) is such a masterful debater, so intellectually powerful and confident of his positions on free trade and antisemitism, that he has now ducked a second direct challenge from me.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
@benshapiro Since you were afraid to debate free trade with me, why don’t we debate the nature of anti-semitism?

Trent Harmon ‏@harmTRON
I smell desperation from @voxday

 Supreme Dark Lord@voxday
@harmTRON @benshapiro You need to get your nose checked. (((Ben))) is the one running from me. It’s not the other way around.

Ben Shapiro‏@benshapiro
I don’t run from dog crap or debate it. I just wipe it off my shoe and move on.

I have to admit, I find it more than a little puzzling that people like Shapiro, Myers, and Scalzi genuinely seem to believe that they can run away from direct public challenges, but still maintain a credible public posture as a brave defender of their beliefs more than capable of defeating any challenger.

Anyhow, since we won’t be debating, I see no reason not to point out that the whole “Judeo-Christian” heritage line, with which propagandists and rhetoricians like (((Ben))) have made so much hay among Christians, is even more bogus than “the melting pot”. It doesn’t even show up before 1840! Notice, in particular, the way in which usage takes off after 1965, at precisely the same time “a nation of immigrants” did the same.

UPDATE: This is telling.

Free Northerner ‏@FreeNortherner
Check @benshapiro ‘s blatant hypocrisy. 4 hours ago he mocked @piersmorgan for not debating @scrowder. 2 hours ago he ran away from @voxday.


Heat Street debate: marital rape

My latest debate with Louise Mensch of Heat Street is on the subject of marital rape, concerning which my view that it is an oxymoron has been declared controversial in certain circles:

Louise Mensch: Do you agree that there’s no such thing as rape within marriage?

Vox Day: Yeah, I think it’s quite obvious that it’s not even possible for there to be anything that we describe as rape within marriage. I find it remarkable that someone would try and claim that it is beyond debate when this new concept of marital rape is not only very, very new but is in fact not even applicable to most of the human race. It’s very clear, for example, in India it’s part of the written law that it’s not possible, for even if force is involved, there cannot be rape between a man and a woman. In China the law is the same.

LM: Mm-hmm (affirmative) but there’s a difference between saying what the law is and saying what is morally right. You would agree that just because somebody says something is a law doesn’t make it so. Let’s just start with that basic principle.

Vox: There’s huge difference between morality and legality. I’d be the first to agree with that. The fact of the matter is that the concept of marital rape hangs on consent and because marriage is and has always granted consent, the act of marriage is a granting of consent, therefore it’s not possible for the consent to be withdrawn and then for rape to happen. In fact, the concept of marital rape is created by the cultural Marxists in an attempt to destroy the family and to destroy the institution of marriage.

LM: I’m going to say that that’s patent nonsense. If you consent to something once it doesn’t mean that you’ve given a blanket consent to it forever. We agree on the definition of rape – that rape is when one party forces sex on the other without their consent?

Vox: Yes.

LM: Good. We go that far. Your argument then hinges on the statement that to get married is to give an all-time consent forever to sex with your spouse?

Vox: Exactly. It’s no different than when you join the army. You only have to join the army once. You don’t get the choice to consent to obey orders every single time an order is given. In certain arrangements, and marriage is one of them, the agreement is a lasting one, and that’s why it’s something that should not be entered into lightly.

I find it both amusing and mildly disconcerting that a view which is consistent with the entire legal and philosophical history of the human race is suddenly supposed to be unimaginable. I mean, precisely how ignorant, precisely how brainwashed, does one have to be in order to be completely unable to imagine that which is not only recent history, but is still the law for most of the human race?


Democracy debate part 1

Konrad Razumovsky challenged me to a debate in response to my contention that direct democracy is superior to representative democracy. This is his initial statement.

“My opinion, as I have previously expressed, is that the problems of “mob rule” of which the Founders so famously warned have proven to be considerably fewer and less problematic than the problems of establishing a political elite that uses the illusion of democratic approval as a protective shield. Now that technology makes it viable for larger polities, direct democracy is a moral imperative in any society with a government that is justified by the will of the people.”
—Vox Day

For the purposes of this, I am using a slightly modified version of the definition of democracy from Merriam-Webster: a democracy is “a form of government in which the people choose leaders, or specific laws, by voting”.

I do grant, and cannot reasonably dispute the following: one, representative democracies or democratic republics do limit the impact of the will of the people, by intention or accident is irrelevant; two, the most dangerous thing for a nation, in the long run, is a political elite which is divorced from the common man, a political elite who believe they are justified and also able to sell their chicanery to said common man with a gross misrepresentation of the intent of a particular government; third—and finally, technology does many exceptional things, with respect to man’s ability to influence his condition including the methods by which government can be built.  That said, I have no real issue with direct democracy in theory, or in practice, but I am forced to dispute the implicit claim that a democracy is an appropriate form of government for a larger scale polity, with or without technological intervention and irrespective of its moral gravity.  That is to say that a direct democracy has a number of internal issues which render it ineffective, if not outright detrimental, to a civilization of a certain size.  Briefly, these are: one, no amount of technological development is equal to the task of preventing the poor use thereof; two, democracies derive their legitimacy from the collective people of the nation, which would be fine if governments existed to care for the people, which they do not; three, economics applies to voting just as much as everything else; fourth—and finally, though mob rule is, indeed, a historical falsity, something very similar to it does exist and is exactly the thing which placed the silly political elite into power in the current era.  There will then need to be some minor legwork done on historic democracies to determine if the theoretical framework matches the practice.

While it must be admitted by all reasonable men that modern information based technology has certainly made it possible for a democracy to function on a scale significantly larger than previously possible, in terms of both geography and population, these advances do little to address the frailty of the ballot box.  In the more traditional rendition of a democracy, there are legions of little vote counters who, being human, can each be induced by their own ideologies or the machinations of others to forget or misplace certain votes; there are instances of the dearly departed or even pets casting votes; and there is one supreme holder of the ballots who could, were he so inclined, read a different name than the one at the top of the chart.  I freely admit that technology removes the human element from these scenarios, the vote counters are machines who are incorruptible by their own bias and cannot be blackmailed; a machine is compelled to follow its programming regarding the necessary certification that a particular voter is eligible to cast such a vote, thereby reducing the rate at which Spot or Aunt Mildred interferes with mortal affairs; and a machine is honest about who is where on the final printout. 


All of this rests on the assumption that the machine(s) administering the vote enjoy a state of being free of that kind of harassment designed to cause a shift in the eventual outcome of the vote being so administered.  Obviously, direct and physical tampering with these Democratic Servers is undesirable, so steps must be taken to remove the possibility of such.  I see two feasible solutions: one, the voting process may be moved entirely to the cloud, divorcing it from a physical existence; or two, the physical Democratic Servers must be fiercely protected against intrusions.  The problem with the first is that everyone on the planet would have access to the voting system, regardless of the level of authentication required to vote, a machine is only a machine—it is easily fooled by anyone with sufficient knowledge of the systems which compose it.  In other words, the account security for these voting systems would need to be impregnable, not only from foreign agents, but also from those running for office.  Due to the grand and illustrious history of impregnable vaults being busted, unsinkable ships being sunk, irrefutable evidence being refuted, and unstoppable armies being crushed, it strikes me as a point of absurdity to assume that any such system built today will last any serious amount of time.

The solution to this seems simple enough: just appoint a certain group, a set of experts—if you will, to continually update the security protocols.  Of course, this puts the entire democracy at the mercy of these programmers for its integrity, which undermines the entire point of a democracy in the first place, in that the government is derived by the will of the people.  We would be better off simply making the computer programmers the oligarchs of the new world order from the get-go to avoid all of the inevitable build up to that point.  Which leaves the second option: defending the physical counting machine.  This is also a doomed scenario because the defenders of the machine become like the programmers in the first scenario, able to unaccountably pick and choose what inputs the machine receives thereby determining the outcome.  Ultimately, this is not a new problem: every democratic system, above a certain size, will have a praetorian guard of some sort.  None of which is meant to say that technology has no place in a democracy, simply that technology does not solve the problem of the concentration of political power into the hands of a few over time.  So, to put a finer point on it, technology does not preclude in any way, shape, or form the establishment of a political elite who use the illusion of democratic approval as a protective shield, either as the wielders of legislative or executive powers.

Strip away every piece of government and political theory, until the very first portion of it is obvious, and we will see that government cares precisely not at all about the people under it because they are not its purpose and concern, in the West at any rate.  This singular purpose is the recording of property beyond that which is unquestionably within an arbitrary individual’s control.  Indeed, the entire function of government is to provide the threat of violence necessary to keep the integrity of property lines.  I could go into considerable detail regarding this facet of government, but this is neither the time nor the place for that.  Suffice it to say that physical property which is too large to conveniently command as an extension of oneself is the thing which demands the fomentation of a government of any variety.  To put it bluntly, a democracy, even if that democracy functions perfectly, places political power in the hands of all living members of a particular society regardless of their standing in terms of property which requires the existence of a government.  If all members of this democracy share a portion of this property, there is no problem as each member of the democracy ultimately has the same interest: the protection of the integrity of property as defined by the legal code enacted by this democracy; if only some members of the democracy enjoy the privileges of property ownership, then there becomes a schism in the end goals of the populace due to one group having property and the other not.  In times past, I would probably feel compelled to simply dismiss this schism as the product of the basest portions of human nature and therefore an ignorable affliction in an enlightened society, however, the past few decades serve as ample evidence that even the mightiest and most careful cultures can be brought low.  The moral standing of property envy is irrelevant at this point, it exists and must be countenanced and thwarted in some more robust manner than an appeal to fragile culture.  Until such a time as men become wholly divorced from their envy and petty jealousies, such that those without strive to achieve the same status as those who by grace have instead of simply using any and all possible leverage—including the use of government force—to deprive the latter group from their holdings, allowing such men, those who do not bear some interest in the ultimate good of the nation—and, by extension, the weight of property, dilutes or undermines the ultimate point of the establishment of a government in the first place.  Therefore, a democracy will eventually destroy itself.

Economics, the study of rational choice, is most assuredly a matter of concern for the democrat, simply because it is the ideal means by which men do their voting.  Obviously, the hope is for every voting member of a democracy to make his choices rationally, but the decision to vote is, itself, subject to a rational tradeoff.  It is a common observation that a vote in a democracy above a certain size is functionally useless.  A single vote in a nation of one hundred is worth considerably more than a single vote in a country of millions.  Granted, technological advances can make the costs associated with voting, leaving work early, time consumed casting the ballot, among others, much smaller but does little to ensure that a particular vote is actually worth casting in the grander sense.  Consider California, where it is not uncommon to find men of the right choosing not to vote simply because there is no point in doing so.  The analysis by these men is a simple one: there is a significant number of individuals within the State of California, to the point where an individual vote is insignificant, and the vast majority of Californians simply disagree with these right leaning voters.  A callous solution would be to instruct these people to move elsewhere, where their neighbors tend to agree with them, but this is an implicit admission that the discrete vote matters not at all.  Were the large scale democrat to admit that his ideology necessarily ignores the trees for the forest, I would have considerably less of a problem with the whole system of thought as the link between an increase in large scale democracy and the decline of individual rights could be more adequately documented and discussed.  To put it in a slightly more direct way, if a democracy exceeds a certain population threshold, then the democracy ceases to be able to effectively operate in a manner which is consistent with classically liberal thought.

Mob rule, or the tyranny of the majority, does not exist, in any meaningful form, but its close cousin, let’s call it the tyranny of geography, does.  For example, communities on the edge of the ocean have considerably different concerns than the community on a mountainside.  It would be unreasonable to expect the mountainside community to build houses on stilts to avoid tidal flooding, and the seaside community to have steeply sloped roofs to more effectively shed snowfall.  Such dichotomies can be found everywhere, with certain areas developing a particular solution to a problem which does not exist elsewhere.  Now, geography and climate can certainly cause people to behave differently discretely, but it has not been established that this would impair the ability of the aggregate of such localities to enact an effective democracy.  Indeed, if the total population of the seaside community and the mountainside community are virtually equivalent, then neither party would be able to force every house to have stilts or steep rooves, instead getting what seems not disagreeable to both.  The only problem is that such an arrangement simply does not happen in reality.  Let us examine New York State.  There is a collection of a few cities along the coast which dominate the entire policy of the state despite the rest of the state being of precisely the opposite political affiliation.  In other words, a concentration of people, brought about by geographic concerns, such as the suitability of a particular place to function as a port or commerce hub, may very well have certain governmental needs which do not exist outside of the densely populated areas, a governmental solution which could very easily eliminate the livelihood of these rural or suburban communities, and a democracy places complete authority over these potentially suffocating policies in the hands of those who choose to live in hyper concentrated areas without providing ser
ious recourse to those in the boonies.  In a democracy, cities warp the political landscape to their own benefit, sometimes costing the smaller and more numerous communities which share its jurisdiction greatly.  If the wholesale ruination of the nonurban is permissible, then a democracy with a large footprint is acceptable; if not, then democracy must be limited in geographic size.

To briefly reiterate, a successful democracy would be fairly small in size and scale, encompassing a small area geographically and inhabited by a certain, relatively low, number of residents.  Bold claims to be sure, but not without historic precedence: I would draw your attention to both the Iceni tribes of pre-Roman Britain and the Her Majesty’s Privateers of the colonial era.  Both cases are successful democracies, successful in that they enjoyed social stability and developed cultures which further lubricated the systems put in place, with the community placing authority in an individual, either chief or captain, whose concern ensured that the democracy as a whole was benefited.  Should this figure of authority be found wanting, he did not have armies at his disposal to put down a vote of no confidence because his army consisted of his neighbors and friends who had a real interest in the good of the community as a whole.  In short, if the chief or captain failed to perform their duties in an acceptable manner to the people of the democracy, then removing them was an almost trivial matter: the army which did the removing was the army who followed his orders was the people who did the voting.  Of course, these examples merely show that a democracy does work on a local level but fails to evidence an inability of the system to meet the needs of a larger populace, in terms of both raw numbers and territory.  For this, we should investigate the history of Athens which, after having demonstrated its superiority in every possible field to its harshest critic—Plato, quietly fell apart due to internal issues between the various voting groups as these groups matured past their nascence within a few generations.

None of which quite addresses the most obvious point of a pure democracy: the laws or leaders enjoying the vote.  How precisely does the leader enact his will?  If historic trends are any indication, then a democracy is simply a form of government used to legitimize a dictator.  Does the democracy then choose to be of the form where every proposed law is voted on by the general populace?  If so, then one of two eventualities arise, either: one, the populace appoints, presumably by democratic means, a body of persons who propose laws, which is the establishment of a political elite who are naturally compelled to use their power for their own purposes; or, the laws are crowdsourced in some fashion, which would probably result in charming little laws akin to the naming of certain Antarctic Icebreakers.

All of these issues combined, or any one of them—really, is sufficient to fully dissuade the serious political philosopher from accepting democracy as some great panacea for the ills of society.  There is a place for democracy, to be sure—as it is very good at what it does under the appropriate circumstances, but its structural integrity is built solely upon its locality.  If a democracy reigns supreme over too large an expanse of people or places, then it will eventually destroy the very livelihood of those different people and places simply due to the nature of the thing.  This is an observation noted by the Founders, and was solved in their day by establishing requirements beyond that of mere life for voters and building the United States Senate upon the legislatures of the various states.  In fact, there was a little war fought over how ineffective these precautions were in thwarting the tendencies of democracies from 1861 to 1865, with numerous potential solutions being offered by one of the sides in that conflict.  More than any other factor, the spread of the belief of the justness of a pure and true democracy has contributed to the decline which is now so apparent throughout the West.  Insisting that more of the same is the solution is to argue that the United States, and nations like it, should cease to be one nation; a perfectly acceptable assertion, to be sure, but very different from the initial conceit of an objectively superior form of government for a nation of any serious size whose government derives its legitimacy from the will of the people.

I will post my response here sometime in the coming weeks, but I will note that Konrad appears to have completely missed the target by attacking the concept of democracy itself instead of defending the superiority of representative democracy to direct democracy. I have no intention whatsoever of defending the core concept of democracy itself, as my argument is neither theoretical nor idealistic in nature, but entirely practical, eminently possible, and directly relevant to the present political situation.


Up and over their heads

MC listened to the Day-Murphy debate on free trade:

I was unable to attend on Friday, but I just listened to the audio.  Excellent debate, loved the format.  Really should make anyone stretch their thinking as well as help them come to their own conclusion.  Admittedly I heard things I had not heard before and my knowledge base was expanded and continues to be with these debates. 

One point you made that “Let reason be silent when experience gainsays it’s existence”.  This seems to be the problem with most economists and Austrians is that they are so sold on their theories and their ability to come to a conclusion that is elegant reasoning, they totally miss the forest for the trees.  I think most economists lose the common man because the common man lives in the real world and knows that those elegant theories have failed to bring about a better result in reality.  The previous debate and this one has shown me that these economists are not too acquainted with real life and the practical effects free trade has had on this country. 

I did not vote to make my country poorer so as to make the rest of the world richer.  I am a Christian, but my benevolence is my decision, not one forced on me by my government.  I don’t think that is what God had in mind when he asked me to help the poor. 

Anyway, both of these debates are more instructive than anything I learned in college and infinitely more practical.  Please keep these coming.     

I wasn’t crazy about the format in practice, as it prevented either interlocutor from really pinning the other down, but I think it was both fair and useful in that it illuminated the arguments for both sides, at least for those capable of following them. I suspect it can be improved, but regardless, it wasn’t bad for a first experiment.

On the other hand, it has been rather remarkable to witness the slack-jawed astonishment of the lesser free trade advocates, who completely lack the ability to even begin processing the simplest of my anti-free trade arguments.

Who is this guy? I highly question his economic understanding.

All five of his opening arguments are extremely weak. For example, he puts forward the notion that decreased real incomes and increased indebtedness proves free trade doesn’t work. I mean, are you serious? How can anyone make such a stupid argument? As if free trade is the only determinant of real incomes and indebtedness, that domestic economic and fiscal policy has nothing to do with it? How naive must he be to think everything bad that happens domestically can only be explained by free trade. People give this Day guy too much credit.

This is further evidence of the inability to communicate across the 30-point IQ gap. The gentleman clearly doesn’t realize that he is attacking the same correlation-causation argument that I am, only he is doing so considerably less competently because he doesn’t understand that I am not making an anti-free trade argument per se, but rather, explaining the falsity of a very common free trade argument.

He makes the same mistake twice,in fact, as he also fails to understand that I am citing an empirical failure of the theoretical free trade model when it comes to quality:

The example he provides to show that protectionism promotes quality products was the example of Parmesan cheese in the EU, where producers of a definite kind of Parmesan of a cultural value get the legal monopoly on labeling the product vis-a-vis imported versions. In his opinion, the protected cheese is of much better quality.

Well, I guess that’s the case for government imposition of restrictions on trade, to ensure the nation state has high quality cheese.

Notice how free trade advocates are reliably dishonest, in that they make appeals to exceptions when it suits them and deny the legitimacy of such appeals even when the exception is valid because it disproves the free trade model. I could as easily say that one very common case for the removal of government restrictions on trade is to ensure the nation state has high-quality automobiles.

How is it intellectually legitimate for free traders to point to low-quality American autos in the 1970s as a meaningful example, but illegitimate for anti-free traders to point to high-quality Italian cheeses in the 2010s as an equally meaningful one? Especially when the latter clearly disproves the assertion that government protection necessitates lower quality goods for the domestic market.

What I found particularly amusing were those critics who simultaneously complained that I was making non-economic arguments, then insisted that my position was immoral or in violation of the human right to freely engage in economic activity. It never even crossed their mind that their arguments were considerably less economic in nature than my own.

One thing I’ve noticed is that midwits reliably fail to understand the difference between a positive argument and the critique of an opposing argument. This explains why so many people are, on the one hand, saying that my arguments are weak while so many others are impressed at how I have methodically destroyed the pro-free trade arguments. It rather reminds me of the atheist response to TIA, in which many of them expressed disappointment in the weakness of my arguments for the existence of God.

But they were only weak in that they did not exist at all. They were an altogether different creature, being critiques and debunkings of dozens of arguments against the existence of God.


Today’s lesson in rhetoric

An SJW white knight was attempting to attack Mike Cernovich over his observations concerning false rape claims. I joined in, and things went pretty much how you might expect from there.

Avram Meitner @AvramMeitner
Feminists aren’t responsible for rape! Spoken like a true misogynist.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
True. Feminists are responsible for fake rape, near rape, virtual rape, and regret rape. None of which is actually rape.

Avram Meitner ‏@AvramMeitner
Anonymous rape advocate.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
Why do you advocate rape? Is it a personal hobby or do you think rape is good for society?

Avram Meitner ‏@AvramMeitner
Anonymous rape advocate now tries to deflect from his rape advocacy.

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
“I’d like to amputate part of your healthy baby, suck his penis and give him herpes.”
– Avram Meitner, rape advocate

Sick!

Supreme Dark Lord @voxday
You not only advocate rape, you advocate child rape! Get help, you sick paedo.

Avram Meitner ‏@AvramMeitner
When a rape advocate is exposed, they naturally rely on dishonesty to squirm out of it.

Supreme Dark Lord @voxday
Exactly. You falsely accused me. I accurately quoted you.

Supreme Dark Lord @voxday
You lied, Avram. And you brought inferior rhetoric despite your obvious vulnerability to it. You failed Sun Tzu 101.

You are blocked from following @AvramMeitner and viewing @AvramMeitner’s Tweets.

It’s like clockwork. Never forget the Third Law of SJW: SJWs Always Project. They have no capacity for defense, and their inclination towards hypocrisy means that they won’t hesitate to complain about the very behavior that they exhibited first. This leaves them extremely vulnerable, especially in public, as others won’t hesitate to point out that hypocrisy.

They’ll start with rhetoric, then try to retreat to pseudo-dialectic; don’t fall for it, just stick with the rhetoric. If it wasn’t working, they wouldn’t be retreating.